Barry Levinson and I are drinking tea (him: chamomile, me: iced) in one of the lobby lounges of the Four Seasons Hotel in Manhattan when Robert De Niro arrives, all smiles for his director.

 

“Look at Barry, all dressed up,” De Niro says of Levinson’s sleek blue suit, though De Niro himself is wearing a sportcoat and slacks.

 

De Niro, too, orders chamomile, then joins in the talk about “What Just Happened,” the film based on the memoir by producer Art Linson. The movie is a fictionalized - but still wildly funny - reworking of Linson’s book, with De Niro playing a producer during the worst two weeks of his life. He’s got two problem movies to deal with at the same time and several ex-wives to juggle, with his Blue Tooth as the life preserver that keeps him afloat. It’s all about tap-dancing around the landmines that dot his path, as Levinson and De Niro told me.

 

Q: So how much of an exaggeration is this film in making fun of the movie industry? Or does it not go far enough?

 

Levinson: There’s more than enough inefficiency in the movie industry to go around. Everybody has had the experience, whether it’s specific to movies or another business. We’ve all had the meeting with the studio head when you’re obviously talking about two different things. It’s a difficult, embarrassing moment.

 

De Niro: The Catherine Keener character actually simplifies things by saying what she means. In real life, she might not say those things but that’s what she’s thinking. In real life, an executive might be giving lip service to creativity but she’s actually worried about losing the $15 million.

 

Q: Can you think of an experience you’ve had similar to one in the movie?

 

Levinson: I remember, during a meeting about “Rain Man.” One of the executives said to me, “If you ever do think of making changes to the ending, we’d support you on that.” Instead of just saying, “How about changing the ending?” The fun is in the language that’s used when they don’t want to address something specifically.

 

De Niro: It falls more on the director than on me. I’m spared. I always have the greatest empathy for a director because he has to bear the brunt of that assault, that pressure. Barry knows it better than I do. But there’s always the bottom line: They don’t want to lose money. Nobody wants to do that.

 

Q: So what keeps it all going?

 

De Niro: Nobody really knows or has an answer. The irony of a movie that does well is that everybody turns around and tries to make one just like it. People act on their own instincts for what works for a story. But everybody else kibitzes. It’s a dance.

 

Levinson: At its best.

 

De Niro: – and not necessarily a civil one.

 

Q: (to De Niro) How did it feel when Art Linson wrote about his experiences working with you in his book?

 

De Niro: Art is a dear friend of mine. I laughed through the whole book. I said, “You should write a script from this.” He’s got a great sense of humor. This movie is not mean-spirited and neither is his book. He does it with a deftness.

 

Q: He portrays you as being indecisive.

 

De Niro: Sometimes I’m indecisive. Other times I’m clear. Like on that bear movie. (David Mamet’s script, “The Edge.”) That one I felt was not working. The next best thing is to have a reading to see if the script becomes a little more visible. Once we did a reading, it became more visible to me that it was not something I should do.

 

Q: The two of you last worked on “Wag the Dog.” When I rewatched it recently, it was scary how prescient that movie was.

 

Levinson: Two years ago, we had a screening of “Wag the Dog” in Washington, D.C. In watching it, there were a couple of times where the audience literally gasped. One was the mention of a suitcase bomb. There were a couple of other things they mentioned that had turned out to be true. When you hear the audience react in the midst of a screening, you know you got it right.

 

This movie is not a satire. It’s hard to satirize Hollywood, the stories are so crazy. “Wag the Dog” was a full-blown satire. This is more about a guy trying to navigate two weeks of his life with craziness all around him. It’s crazy, but crazy in terms of the way it is.

 

Q: (to De Niro) You’re more talkative in this movie than any I can think of since “Night and the City.”

 

De Niro: “Night and the City” had a script by Richard Price. Or if you’re working with Mamet; those kind of scripts are fun. For me, it’s the script – it’s Art’s script. Art is great. This character has great behavior, he’s a funny guy. If you get the right kind of dialogue, it’s fun to do. I loved this script, I thought it was funny. I’m happy I can pull it off.

 

Levinson: The key thing is it doesn’t have to be pushed. This guy can lie with the greatest sense of credibility and just keep on lying. “Yes, I’m on the 405 as we speak.” The character has more lies per minute; he’s constantly lying. Part of the fun is he can lie and be that straight-faced all the time.

 

Q: Is he a hero or an anti-hero?

 

De Niro: I think he’s a hero – to himself. A valiant hero.

 

Levinson: He’s just trying to get through the day. Without being pretentious, he’s like the Willie Loman of producers, just trying to make ends meet. He’s got his attaché case, he’s selling his wares. It doesn’t reach tragic proportions. He’s just trying to manage his day between his wives, his children and two films.

 

Q: This is being released as an independent film –

 

Levinson: – because it is an independent film. No one knows that it’s as inexpensive as it is because it doesn’t look cheap. But we shot it in 32 days. We had to move quickly to pull it off. But it’s a full-blooded independent movie. Mostly that becomes a logistics issue. There’s no down time to make a move. You don’t want to feel that you’re sacrificing quality to do the work. We might just have 10 minutes between setups. There’s not time to take long breaks. It’s the nature of how prepared the movie is. In some ways, it’s fun because you don’t stop.

 

De Niro: There’s a certain pace and rhythm to shooting like that. It’s not like you sit down and talk about things and go over and over it, which you can do. Everybody here was clear on what they had to do and they did it.

 

Q: You both had success early in your careers. Since then, you’ve both made movies that were popular and critical hits – and movies that weren’t. Do you think about your legacy?

 

De Niro: It’s nice to leave a legacy. It’s better than not leaving one. Hopefully, there’s a nice one left. I always figure people will decide later what they like, what’s important.

 

Levinson: It’s tough to reflect on it because it’s the doing of this one or the next one that occupies you. What’s next? What’s next? You want to focus on that, rather than, What did you do before?

 

Q: It seems there’s more interesting work being done on TV than in movies these days.

 

Levinson: There’s more character work going on in TV than in features. Features have become high concept. TV is still connected to character. I’m sure there is that shift.

 

Q: (to De Niro) Have you ever thought about doing TV – about the idea of doing the same character week after week for years?

 

De Niro: I’ve thought about doing TV. I don’t watch much – I watch the BBC, HBO. I don’t know whether I could do that – play the same character week after week.

 

Q: As you get older, are you more or less picky about what you do?

 

Levinson: There’s always something that comes along that intrigues you and you can’t let go of it. These days, it seems people are less interested in characters than in genres. Certain genres are big that don’t interest me as much.

 

De Niro: I probably get more picky because I’m getting older and have less time left.

 

Q: Some critics might say, “If he’s so picky, why did he do that one?” about some of the movies you’ve made in the last few years.

 

De Niro: With some of them, they’re right. You’re always trying to make it good. But sometimes you know going in, you know it’s not good – but you commit. You sign on and hope for the best. But sometimes it doesn’t turn out the way you want it to. When I’m not the director, even when I’m the producer, there’s only so much you can do. When you go into it, you know what it is. And you just try to make it as good as you can. But that’s all you can do.

 

Q: Does the response to your films ever surprise you?

 

De Niro: At times, things can be received – you don’t know why but they’re received well. It’s slapped together and it’s a big success.

 

Q: Such as?

 

De Niro: (laughs) I don’t want to go that far. It’s not even movies I’ve done but that I’ve seen others do. But you can also have a high-concept movie with all the working parts perfect – and it’s a big flop. That’s why I find it kind of funny when young executives think they’ve got the answer. The most honest thing to say is I never have the answer. I just follow my instincts.

 

Q: How does it feel dealing with executives who weren’t born when you started making movies?

 

De Niro: I like talking to young people. If they’re smart and sensitive, that’s a plus. I want to help them make something special.

 

Levinson: A couple of months ago, someone I know was talking to students and mentioned Paul Newman. The students didn’t know who Paul Newman was and he had to explain it to them. “Oh yeah, he’s the guy on the salad dressing.” That’s just the nature of things.

 

 

 

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